Curse

Turbobusa · Nov 02, 2007, 05:36 PM // 17:36

I love zuranthium's boon signet buff idea. I would use it all the time on a smiter's boon monk.

Burton2000 · Nov 02, 2007, 06:36 PM // 18:36

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Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Compare this to healing prayers, in which the majority of spells are mainly endless variations on a common theme.

Thing is theres only so many different ways in which you can make red bars go up without repeats of a skill.

Captain Robo · Nov 02, 2007, 06:52 PM // 18:52

That's the point.

Things get especially worse when you're trying to be creative (within the constraints of something as limited as Healing Prayers) and make viable skills at the same time.

Then you end up with skills like Ethereal Light; they look good on paper but nobody wants to play them.

Zuranthium · Nov 02, 2007, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Then you end up with skills like Ethereal Light; they look good on paper but nobody wants to play them.

I'm quite sure that people would like using it on a Healer's Boon if the whole template become good enough. It's actually an interesting skill because of the limitation and rewards player timing.

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Blessed Light - Blessed Light - 5 energy, 1/4 cast, 10 recharge, increase healing amount by 10 points.

Disagree, with a 10 sec recharge the condition removal becomes pretty irrelevant (because you will still need to bring another condition removal) and to a lesser extent so will the heal. I seriously doubt anyone would run this over ZB.

Of course you would still bring another condi removal. That's how the old BL bars worked. You would bring another hex removal too (Deny Hexes, and it would pretty much always be removing 3 hexes on the BL bar) and that forms the draw for this Elite over ZB -- bring it when you want a bar that is well-rounded with excellent hex removal.

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Boon Signet - Increase the healing amount to the same level as Signet of Devotion and gain 3 energy if the target was enchanted.

I don't think this would be a bad change but I doubt it would really be worth the elite slot.

PnH ran a Smiter's Boon with this Elite and Judge's Intervention, which are both shitty right now, and still did alright. If they were buffed, I think it would be an excellent template.

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Divert Hexes - Decrease cast time to 3/4, take out the condi removal part of the skill, remove 1.....2 (at attribute rank 12) hexes from the target (healing for each one removed; keep the current healing amount), and gain 5 energy if only 1 hex was removed. This skill is immune to the effects of any hexes.

If this would be even possible I still dont think it'd be a good change, to make this skill worth bringing it has to do something else just than removing hexes.

What you just said here goes against what you wrote as your own proposed changed to the skill, so I'm baffled.

It is what it is - an Elite hex removal. I like my version more, though, because it's useful against any kind of hexes. Your version costs 8 energy to do a single removal and that is why the skill is currently bad - it's ineffective as spot removal.

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Glimmer of Light - Should always recharge instantly (ie. - goes right through Diversion in addition to actually having a recharge of 0) and be immune to effects that would cause it to fail, be interrupted, or become disabled....and you should be able to cast it while knocked down.

Terrible idea, shut down is in this game for a reason, blindly bypassing shutdown would be really bad for the game.

There are skills around that bypass shutdown. This skill does that at the cost of inefficiency. I don't think it's a bad idea as much as it's a risky (or time-consuming, anyway, for ANET) idea. As I said in the original post after the skill description, the healing amount would most likely need to be lowered. It's something that would have to be fined tuned where a balance is found that makes the skill useful but doesn't allow backlines to never die. Entirely like Distortion - over a short duration the effect is great but eventually you'll just have no energy left. I actually think it would take quite a bit of skill to micro a Glimmer Monk so that you're using it when needed and not wasting energy (and you did say micro is good).

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Glimmer of Light - Should always recharge instantly (ie. - goes right through Diversion in addition to actually having a recharge of 0) and be immune to effects that would cause it to fail, be interrupted, or become disabled....and you should be able to cast it while knocked down.Healing Light - 3/4 cast and 3 second recharge, remove a condition from the target, increase the amount healed to 40 + (Attribute Rank * 5), decrease energy gain by 1 point.

Why should this remove a condition..?

I explained this. ?

It's an Elite Dismiss Condition. Nobody is going to use this skill otherwise -- it's totally vanilla and there's no point. It creates a Monk bar that would be like the one you (and many others) have suggested for Blessed Light.

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Spell Breaker - Drop the energy cost to 5, cast time to 1/4, duration to 3 + (Attribute Rank/2), and recharge to 20.

Clearly needs to be improved but we have to be careful. How does everyone feel about this one?

This skill shouldn't be viable, mechanics like this are really bad for the game, especially if you make the skill itsself uninterruptable..

I somewhat feel that way, but think a balance can be found (I started off suggesting a powerful version of the skill on purpose...we really have to talk about why it would be overpowered and go from there). The biggest problem I see is a Fire Elem or Splinter Rit being immune to Mes effects at VoD and being able to blow up all the NPCs too easily. However, that's also more a problem of horrible NPC grouping that needs to be addressed anyway.

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Zealous Benediction - Move to Healing Prayers and gain 1 + (Attribute Rank/2) energy when the condition is met.

While it might not make sense in the prot line, moving it to healing prayers will destroy the skill..

No it wouldn't. If you give the Healing line its own condi removal and it's own version of RoF, it remains a perfectly viable skill.

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Divine Healing / Heaven’s Delight - Decrease the overall amount healed to 30 + (Attribute Rank * 8) and heal all party members (half of radar range).

With a 30 second recharge these skills will never be viable.

I can't agree with that at all. It's basically the same efficiency as LoD on a non-Elite. Entirely worthwhile to put on your Smite Monk (x2), or Monk runner, or maybe even your stand Monks.

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Mend Ailment, Mend Condition, Mending Touch - Move to Healing Prayers.

Orison of Healing - Decrease the cast time to 1/4, change it to an enchantment with an 8 second duration, and heal the target for 15 + (Attribute Rank * 4) if they take damage.

Wtf? No..

That doesn't tell me anything. Why do you feel the Healing line should not have condi removal and a RoF equivalent?

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Protective Bond - Decrease the energy cost to 5 and cast time to 1.

Why..?

For the reason I listed in my original post? Put it on a flagger who needs heavy prot, or a ganker pushing into NPCs, or someone with DP that you think is about to get spiked, or on a bunch of targets when pushing out on catapult maps and someone is firing. The skill isn't viable as a constant bond...it needs to be able to be constantly cast and maintained for just a little bit. That's not possible with the current cost/activation time.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

you seem to want to buff a lot of skills just for the sake of buffing them.. which is pretty stupid imo.

Any skill change I suggest is something that I could see working in the game, not just for the sake of doing it (which isn't to say that I think some of these ideas are perfect; many of them need some shaping). Admittedly, I can see how some of the ideas seem weird or pointless since the character builds I envision in my head aren't clear to everyone else...but it would take so much time to go through and write up a proposed skill bar for every single skill. I've already spent enough time creating a database in my computer of every single skill/class/attribute change for the game. I'm sorry I can't go further at this time. I guess I'm content to spend time explaining things when people respond to the ideas (really good of you to take the time and respond to that many items on the list, btw! ) but too lazy to spend the time making my database more descriptive.

~Z

moriz · Nov 02, 2007, 09:24 PM // 21:24

and those skills will be stuck in a specific build and you won't find them anywhere else. buffing skills to "work in a build in my head" generally won't give very good results, because it will just create more highly-specific skills that people won't bother using if they are balanced, or simply lead to more buildwars if they prove to be powerful.

the game does not need skills that are specific: we already have then. what the game needs are flexible skills, skills that can be useful in multiple instances and builds.

Zuranthium · Nov 02, 2007, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

and those skills will be stuck in a specific build and you won't find them anywhere else. buffing skills to "work in a build in my head" generally won't give very good results, because it will just create more highly-specific skills that people won't bother using if they are balanced, or simply lead to more buildwars if they prove to be powerful.

No, this misses the point. The idea is to have many ways to accomplish basically the same end result, with player preference deciding which avenue will be used.

If something "proves to be too powerful" then it isn't balanced. Don't think about the whole picture in a vacuum - everything is constantly malleable; that's a great feature online games possess. It's entirely possible to have a very wide variety of builds that perform a similar basic function for a team (in this case, a Monk) but play much differently, therefore giving players more choices and also increasing the complexity of identifying what the opposing team is using and learning how to play against it (which makes the game more fun, to me).

~Z

moriz · Nov 02, 2007, 10:05 PM // 22:05

your theories might look good on paper, but usually won't work in practice. it is improbable to the point of impossible to achieve a balance where you can get multiple balanced, similar in function but different to play builds. attempting to balance along this line of thought will lead to buildwars 99.9% of the time.

the NF campaign proves my point. anet wants new, powerful skills so people would buy the campaign, and be ready to become competitive even without the earlier campaigns. they were hoping to achieve what you are trying: to have multiple builds that are different to play, but contribute similar things to the party. instead, the skills simply prove to be extremely powerful, and people just slapped the most powerful of them into a build and roll other teams with it.

in conclusion, the way you are trying to balance skills simply do not work in practice. we have an entire compaign of skills to prove it.

Zuranthium · Nov 02, 2007, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

your theories might look good on paper, but usually won't work in practice. it is improbable to the point of impossible to achieve a balance where you can get multiple balanced, similar in function but different to play builds. attempting to balance along this line of thought will lead to buildwars 99.9% of the time.

I can't agree with this line of thinking. Who cares if an idea doesn't work in practice? There is nothing to lose by trying; we aren't playing around with variations of bombs here. Experimentation is so crucial and the game isn't static; everything can be changed. The only argument to be had is "ANET doesn't have the time/resources" and if someone is going to use that line then I would suggest not responding at all since most of these skills are never going to be touched in the first place, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

the NF campaign proves my point. anet wants new, powerful skills so people would buy the campaign, and be ready to become competitive even without the earlier campaigns. they were hoping to achieve what you are trying: to have multiple builds that are different to play, but contribute similar things to the party. instead, the skills simply prove to be extremely powerful, and people just slapped the most powerful of them into a build and roll other teams with it.

Not a good comparison at all. I'm pretty sure the intent and execution behind NF is a lot different than my ideas. Aside from that, the purpose of me even posting my ideas is to hear specific points of view with reasoning behind why something would need to be modified further/differently than what I suggested. Such as "X skill would be too powerful on this bar and in such and such situation". Saying "I don't like it" in a discussion that's not looking for a broad summarized opinion is pretty pointless. It actually really downgrades the whole discussion, wastes time + space, and makes one or both posters seem almost malicious (no fun for me and I assume most other people don't like being perceived that way either).

~Z

moriz · Nov 02, 2007, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I can't agree with this line of thinking. Who cares if an idea doesn't work in practice?

i think you just pwned yourself.

Zuranthium · Nov 02, 2007, 11:52 PM // 23:52

No, I didn't. Anything put into the game can be quickly reverted if it's THAT much of a problem. Meaning, if it doesn't work in practice, then it doesn't happen anymore. It's really very simple.

~Z

twicky_kid · Nov 03, 2007, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

No, I didn't. Anything put into the game can be quickly reverted if it's THAT much of a problem. Meaning, if it doesn't work in practice, then it doesn't happen anymore. It's really very simple.

~Z

Resources and manpower are the problem. For every suggestion you make a programmer has to implement it into the game and fix any adverse bugs. Then when the change doesn't work out he must reverse all the changes while again fixing any problems.

Even though this is a game its a business. Is making those changes going to bring in new customers? If its yes Anet will do it. Otherwise they have no reason to make any changes other than to salvage whatever player base is left for pvp so they can sell us GW2.

Healing prayers has never been a good attribute. You only need 1-2 "red bars go up" spells. Should Anet waste their time on healing prayers? I don't think they should. Right now there are 4 choices of monks to run. That is the most choices there ever has been for monks.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 03, 2007, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Healing Light needs the increased healing because you will not have access to GoH. The only powerful heal you'll have access too is heal other, healing ribbons, and infuse. All the other options can't target yourself.

An LoD monk gets by just fine with LoD as only real self heal.

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It doesn't matter if patient spirit doesn't compare to infuse vs a spike. If its going to be on my bar I need to be able to use it in pressure and spike situations. Patient spirit barely heals more than other healing spells and is junk in a spike.

I disagree with that, in fact, I'd say the only reason I'd even consider bringing patient spirit would be against a spike, it's a cheap way to not only provide a cover for your big prots (for the duration of the spike) but it also heals upon removal, effectively negating stuff like shatter enchant and hex eater vortex.

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Considering that Orison heals for 75 and Ethereal Light heals for 100 there isn't much a comparison there. Ethereal is shut down by anything attacking you. So I can just have my casters wand the monks and you're left with a useless skill on your bar.

By that logic traps are useless too, the problem with ethereal light is that it's not really a self heal, because the only time you're gonna be using it on yourself is when you're getting hit, and for a heal thats only really useful to heal others there's simply better options available.

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Healing Convent is a really horrible skill. It forces you to spam too much to heal a target. The bigger your heal the less effective your healing is. We all know what happens to spamming monks. The healing should be scaled. Otherwise an elite -1 that reduces my power by 25% is not worth my time.

I'm not sure I agree with this, the reason it's crap now imo is because it's inefficient with 10 energy spells, if it would be changed match my suggestion, I think it could be very useful with skills like healing ribbon and heal other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Of course you would still bring another condi removal. That's how the old BL bars worked. You would bring another hex removal too (Deny Hexes, and it would pretty much always be removing 3 hexes on the BL bar) and that forms the draw for this Elite over ZB -- bring it when you want a bar that is well-rounded with excellent hex removal.

The old BL bars worked because BL was a decent way of pushing red bars up, while also being useful in other situations, I just don't see your version being more useful than current monk templates in any situation.

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PnH ran a Smiter's Boon with this Elite and Judge's Intervention, which are both shitty right now, and still did alright. If they were buffed, I think it would be an excellent template.

They ran a very specific dedicated split build that basically had 2 semi defensive characters as opposed to 1 offensive and 1 defensive, it 'worked' for the same reason other dedicate splits work, because people are bad at splitting/dealing with splits.

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What you just said here goes against what you wrote as your own proposed changed to the skill, so I'm baffled.

Except it doesn't, my suggestion would make Divert Hexes double as an RC without the heal effect, while it might be inefficient at that it can still be used for it if needed and divert hexes will always be a niche skill, especially if the metagame is not filled with hex overload builds.

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It is what it is - an Elite hex removal. I like my version more, though, because it's useful against any kind of hexes. Your version costs 8 energy to do a single removal and that is why the skill is currently bad - it's ineffective as spot removal.

It's not supposed to be a spot removal though, if this skill becomes viable in a metagame were hex builds are rare it's simply too strong.

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There are skills around that bypass shutdown. This skill does that at the cost of inefficiency. I don't think it's a bad idea as much as it's a risky (or time-consuming, anyway, for ANET) idea. As I said in the original post after the skill description, the healing amount would most likely need to be lowered. It's something that would have to be fined tuned where a balance is found that makes the skill useful but doesn't allow backlines to never die. Entirely like Distortion - over a short duration the effect is great but eventually you'll just have no energy left. I actually think it would take quite a bit of skill to micro a Glimmer Monk so that you're using it when needed and not wasting energy (and you did say micro is good).

It's just a bad idea, how much micro is really involved if you dont even have to worry about getting interrupted, diverted or knocked down? The comparison with distortion is pretty retarded too...

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I explained this. ?

It's an Elite Dismiss Condition. Nobody is going to use this skill otherwise -- it's totally vanilla and there's no point. It creates a Monk bar that would be like the one you (and many others) have suggested for Blessed Light.

It's a reasonably strong heal that gives energy back.. it needs some better stats, the condition removal is idiotic and won't make people use this.

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I somewhat feel that way, but think a balance can be found (I started off suggesting a powerful version of the skill on purpose...we really have to talk about why it would be overpowered and go from there). The biggest problem I see is a Fire Elem or Splinter Rit being immune to Mes effects at VoD and being able to blow up all the NPCs too easily. However, that's also more a problem of horrible NPC grouping that needs to be addressed anyway.

It makes for a terrible game mechanic, spellbreaker should stay as it is.

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No it wouldn't. If you give the Healing line its own condi removal and it's own version of RoF, it remains a perfectly viable skill.

It forces you to triple split your attributes which basically greatly reduces the flexibility of the existing template, at the moment you have the attributes to invest in skills like signet of mystic speed/signet of pious restraint or storm djinns/freezing gust by forcing a triple split in monk attributes just to be somewhat effective is gonna make runners even more defensive than they already are.

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I can't agree with that at all. It's basically the same efficiency as LoD on a non-Elite. Entirely worthwhile to put on your Smite Monk (x2), or Monk runner, or maybe even your stand Monks.

Except this game doesnt work that way, if health bars drop too low without being healed up for too long, stuff will die, LoD because of the recharge prevents this from happening, a party wide heal once (or even twice) every 30 seconds is not gonna prevent this from happening.

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That doesn't tell me anything. Why do you feel the Healing line should not have condi removal and a RoF equivalent?

Why shouldn't the healing line have a skill that rains meteors down upon your foes?

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For the reason I listed in my original post? Put it on a flagger who needs heavy prot, or a ganker pushing into NPCs, or someone with DP that you think is about to get spiked, or on a bunch of targets when pushing out on catapult maps and someone is firing. The skill isn't viable as a constant bond...it needs to be able to be constantly cast and maintained for just a little bit. That's not possible with the current cost/activation time.

It's an uninteresting skill that makes for bad gameplay, nothing more, nothing less. Leave this as it is, unplayable.

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Any skill change I suggest is something that I could see working in the game

No offense, but if you knew how the game 'works' then how come it still says 'Black Rose Gaming' beneath your name, a guild that hasn't played in months and even when they did you weren't an active part of their core.

All this theorycrafting is nice, but if you actually played at a somewhat competitive level you'd realise a lot of thing simply don't work like you planned them to.

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Admittedly, I can see how some of the ideas seem weird or pointless since the character builds I envision in my head aren't clear to everyone else...

I think it's a bad idea to think in bars when you're looking at skills to change, especially if said bars are composed of several skills that you're planning changes for, it just makes it really difficult to envision how this stuff would actually work out in practice.

It's not such a bad idea when you're buffing a skill so that it becomes a viable option on an existing template, but when you're templates are not so set in stone and if you want to make rigorous changes you will have to look at skills individually. There will always be skill combinations that will work better than others, but the job of a skill balancer is not to create templates, but rather to give players the options to create their own.

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really good of you to take the time and respond to that many items on the list, btw!

Yeah, I was really bored, and halfway through the list I was wondering why I even bothered, because some of the suggestions were as stupid as they were nonsensical..

twicky_kid · Nov 03, 2007, 03:05 AM // 03:05

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

An LoD monk gets by just fine with LoD as only real self heal.

That's because there is another monk with GoH and Dismiss on both bars.

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

I disagree with that, in fact, I'd say the only reason I'd even consider bringing patient spirit would be against a spike, it's a cheap way to not only provide a cover for your big prots (for the duration of the spike) but it also heals upon removal, effectively negating stuff like shatter enchant and hex eater vortex.

The question is what do you use first vs a spike. Patient Spirit, SB, or PS? Patient Spirit isn't going to make a difference. SB and PS cover each other just fine. That's really the reason you run them both. Shatter enchant is going to land on the follow up to spike after the prot lands. Patient really doesn't fit and what would you take off your bar to fit it in. Its not nearly as good as PS or SB.

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

By that logic traps are useless too

Trappers have whirling def and nature's stride so they can avoid attacks while dropping traps. Monks don't. How many other skills are you going to replace on your bar just to make Ethereal Light work?

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

I'm not sure I agree with this, the reason it's crap now imo is because it's inefficient with 10 energy spells, if it would be changed match my suggestion, I think it could be very useful with skills like healing ribbon and heal other.

Its inefficient with everything. Heal other at 150 heal for 10e is 15 hp per 1 energy. Under your change it will heal 113 for 5e making 22.5 hp per 1 energy. Now figure in the -1 energy. Scaling the % less healing would balance out the -1. If it wasn't a maintained enchantment it might be worth considering but as long as its -1 energy and 25% less power its not even worth mentioning.

Zuranthium · Nov 03, 2007, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

The old BL bars worked because BL was a decent way of pushing red bars up, while also being useful in other situations, I just don't see your version being more useful than current monk templates in any situation.

An efficient 1/4 second large heal and universal removal, that further powers Deny Hexes. You really can't think of any times you'd want that kind of Monk runner?

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

They ran a very specific dedicated split build that basically had 2 semi defensive characters as opposed to 1 offensive and 1 defensive, it 'worked' for the same reason other dedicate splits work, because people are bad at splitting/dealing with splits.

I don't see what you're saying. The build obviously showed potential. Smiter's Boon has been run with some success by [scam] as well. If the build has already seen a bit of play and these changes make it more viable, I'm not sure how you can say that nobody would use it. *shrug*

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Except it doesn't, my suggestion would make Divert Hexes double as an RC without the heal effect, while it might be inefficient at that it can still be used for it if needed and divert hexes will always be a niche skill, especially if the metagame is not filled with hex overload builds. It's not supposed to be a spot removal though, if this skill becomes viable in a metagame were hex builds are rare it's simply too strong.

Ah gotchya, didn't see that first part. Hmm, I'm still not sure I like it. I'd rather have Divert be good as spot removal in addition to removing multiple hexes instead of doubling as a condi removal that you'll very rarely use over the real condi removal spell on your bar. I was basically just trying to make the skill less P/R/S and I don't see your version doing that more than mine. It doesn't seem too strong to me; the skill doesn't make spot hexes a liability like Hex Eater Vortex does.

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Glimmer of Light

It's just a bad idea, how much micro is really involved if you dont even have to worry about getting interrupted, diverted or knocked down? The comparison with distortion is pretty retarded too...

It involves micro because you're using an Elite that doesn't actually make you prevent better, heal better, or remove better. It might not matter if you can heal while diverted or knocked down if you're going through so much energy that you get out-pressured. That's where the skill lies. A bad or average Monk will Glimmer bitches left and right, they will run out of energy, and their team will drop or be pushed back into the base. Like I said the inefficiency balances it out and it might take some fine tuning to find the sweet spot.

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

It's a reasonably strong heal that gives energy back.. it needs some better stats, the condition removal is idiotic and won't make people use this.

When would they use your version of Blessed Light then? That's exactly what people want the skill to be - an efficient heal + condi removal at the same time. I simply moved the function over to Healing Light (if it had better stats with the current function I still don't see why people would use it over LoD, Healer's Boon, Word of Healing, ZB, unless the heal amount was SO large that became just ridiculous) and gave Blessed Light a totally different function.

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

It makes for a terrible game mechanic, spellbreaker should stay as it is.

I realize, but you haven't said why you think it would be a bad game mechanic. I stated the same concern in my original post but am being optimistic that the skill could find a balance usage. I just want to hear your actual thought process.

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

It forces you to triple split your attributes which basically greatly reduces the flexibility of the existing template, at the moment you have the attributes to invest in skills like signet of mystic speed/signet of pious restraint or storm djinns/freezing gust by forcing a triple split in monk attributes just to be somewhat effective is gonna make runners even more defensive than they already are.

You don't have to triple split your attributes. The build would be playable with Healing Prayers only (meaning that the rest go in Wind Prayers and Divine Favor).

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Divine Healing/Heaven's Delight

Except this game doesnt work that way, if health bars drop too low without being healed up for too long, stuff will die, LoD because of the recharge prevents this from happening, a party wide heal once (or even twice) every 30 seconds is not gonna prevent this from happening.

If there were Healing Elites that could spot heal better and your team had enough mid-line mitgation, 2 of these could very well be enough. But, more likely, it would serve as supplemental party healing or you would have a stand Smiter Monk or Monk Runner (or both) and run 3-4 copies total, which would certainly be enough.

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Protective Bond

It's an uninteresting skill that makes for bad gameplay, nothing more, nothing less. Leave this as it is, unplayable.

In the current form, yes. That's why tried to make it more like Holy Veil rather than Life Bond -- you should just maintain the effect for a bit and then removing. Do you feel it's uninteresting in that form and, if so, why?

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

No offense, but if you knew how the game 'works' then how come it still says 'Black Rose Gaming' beneath your name, a guild that hasn't played in months.

Because I like it that way? It's where my heart lies. Yes, I'd have changed it if one of my guilds since leaving BR had hit top 20, so I guess the point you're getting at is that I'm not in a top 20 guild and haven't been for awhile, but that's a pretty bitchy statement to posit. There are a lot of players in the 20-100 range, or even further up, who have a very strong comprehension of the game. Just because their teams as a whole haven't come together well enough to reach top 20 doesn't mean they don't have a lot of GvG experience and knowledge.

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I think it's a bad idea to think in bars when you're looking at skills to change, especially if said bars are composed of several skills that you're planning changes for, it just makes it really difficult to envision how this stuff would actually work out in practice.

I'm not saying that a lot of these ideas wouldn't require some testing. I thought I made that pretty clear, actually? *puzzled*. Nobody can just talk about all of this on paper and know everything. I distinctly remember many top players calling Light of Deliverance "mediocre" when it came out. But, the idea is where everything starts. You can't go any further without putting yourself out there first.

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Why shouldn't the healing line have a skill that rains meteors down upon your foes?

I sense you're being facetious. Many people have said they want to see more utility in the Healing line. I know Ensign has talked about it at some point.

Always a pleasure, Mitch.

~Z

(whoops said Healer's Boon, not Smiter's Boon, fixed)

Bankai · Nov 03, 2007, 09:51 AM // 09:51

Something I've noticed, Zuranthium, is that in all your posts, you're trying to send the game in a totally different direction. You're basically trying to change half the game, while most people just want a few changes. And nobody agrees with your changes, as in their opinion, they wouldn't be fun. It's just a difference in opinions as to what makes the game fun. But nobody likes your version of Guild wars, even though the changes aren't bad or something.

Edit:

Quote:

The question is what do you use first vs a spike. Patient Spirit, SB, or PS? Patient Spirit isn't going to make a difference. SB and PS cover each other just fine. That's really the reason you run them both. Shatter enchant is going to land on the follow up to spike after the prot lands. Patient really doesn't fit and what would you take off your bar to fit it in. Its not nearly as good as PS or SB.

That's quite retarded. You use PS and SB because they're both awesome. If you can put them on, AND apply an easy cover enchantment that will heal when removed, meaning that the shatter does nothing and that PS and SB will both stick, that's awesome. On a spike, the LoD is supposed to use PS>Patient spirit, which isn't too hard if you know how to pre-prot.

Bankai · Nov 03, 2007, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

yes please.
1234

Way to mis-interpret my post.

Zuranthium · Nov 03, 2007, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

Something I've noticed, Zuranthium, is that in all your posts, you're trying to send the game in a totally different direction.

Hmmm, I think it's going pretty far to say the whole game. Modifications, yes, but not changes to the purpose of a class (I really don't see how my thoughts here would change the entire function of what a Monk does, for example). Many of my ideas are in tandem with others at the same time, yes. I just get excited by thinking about the massive amount possibilities that have yet to be explored in Guild Wars. I'm sorry if it's bewildering to most everyone else.

~Z

makosi · Nov 03, 2007, 05:55 PM // 17:55

What would people think of adding the Divine Favor bonus to monk signets as well as spells? Monks were given next to no energy management and signets like Signet of devotion are seen as energy management because they arent spending any in the first place. This would also make Boon Signet and the likes useful for a change - an inadvertent buff.

The power creep has happened and Divine Favor has remained the same. Does that make it weaker than before? i'm not saying it does, but it's a discussion point.

Razz L Dazzle · Nov 03, 2007, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Hmmm, I think it's going pretty far to say the whole game. Modifications, yes, but not changes to the purpose of a class (I really don't see how my thoughts here would change the entire function of what a Monk does, for example). Many of my ideas are in tandem with others at the same time, yes. I just get excited by thinking about the massive amount possibilities that have yet to be explored in Guild Wars. I'm sorry if it's bewildering to most everyone else.

~Z

Overall, i think its more sensable to advocate changes to a few skills that you think would improve the status quo. I usually advocate a few skills i like that i feel are underpowered or try to voice concern over certain skills/ or combinations that are ruining my enjoyment. Changing most of the skills in the game: 1) isn't likely 2) would cause more problems than it would solve 3)isn't necessary at this point.

Some of your ideas are interesting, but the more skills you are just trying to make playable really isn't worth it. By the end i see a few good ideas and some poorly contrived buffs to skills that's purpose was meant for pve, etc.. Your desire and time to create and improve many skills would be better spent pursuing a career doing such, wasting it here really isn't worth the time.

Bankai · Nov 03, 2007, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Hmmm, I think it's going pretty far to say the whole game. Modifications, yes, but not changes to the purpose of a class (I really don't see how my thoughts here would change the entire function of what a Monk does, for example). Many of my ideas are in tandem with others at the same time, yes. I just get excited by thinking about the massive amount possibilities that have yet to be explored in Guild Wars. I'm sorry if it's bewildering to most everyone else.

~Z

True, true.

There is one thing I've noticed in general. Everybody is trying to buff too much. If you try to make everything viable, the average power skills goes up, and thus the power creep increases. I think that the next update should only include nerfing.